"this is unfair, what about him, and him, and him - ahhh you dont understand you obviously dont have the inherent intellect to realise that this is a factor"
-- I would like you point out to me the people who did not first come out against this issue and agree with everyone, saying that it is a horrible atrocity and needs to end. I would like to comment directly to them, asking them why would they not first chastise the evil of this crime against the innocent before doing anything else. Please, cite me examples on this site. Not having the inherent intellect, I can't discover them on my own. My own addition cites in the first part, before I get into any other discussion, "I am not against bringing the offenders to justice. In fact, I am completely for it."

What more can you want? That is full agreement and compliance right there. I can't state that any clearer. Now if you want me to call for blood as you all do, I'm afraid I don't believe that is justice or helping anyone. Justice is to remove and punish the responsible people, namely the priests who molested the boys and young men. I would suggest not punishing the other innocent who were also hurt by the crimes of these individuals, namely the parishioners and Catholics at large.

Please answer this question if you care nothing else for my reply: how hard have you looked for the Church's actions in helping this situation? Do you even want to find out?

"No one in their right mind believes this is isolated to the Catholic Church" -- Then why has no one else seemed to set up to criticizing it anywhere else. Why is it that the moment you mention child molesters people say, "Catholic priest?" I would agree you, no one in their right mind. But it's so hard to find people in their right minds. If they are inundated with the media, whom they worship as faultless, that reports only on the Catholic church, what are they to believe then? Already on this forum, no one but Catholics have pointed that issue out. Already we have seen the definition for discrimination fulfilled by the people on this forum: from http://www.adl.org/ "(1)discrimination is the restrictive treatment of a person or group based on prejudiced assumptions of group characteristics, rather than on individual judgment" and "(2) discrimination is denying justice and fair treatment to an individual or group of people." People want to punish the whole Church for the individual's sins, judging the group instead of the individual.

So in light of open discrimination against the Church, I, being one of those members, wants to offer up some facts in place of speculation. I want to offer alternatives to your prejudgments. I want to shed light on the other side that you don't hear from the sensational media.

"more designed to preserve reputations than solving the issue and protecting the children potentially at risk in the future" -- you seem to do the same of sorts (more designed to cast a bad reputation for the Church than solving...). You are here condemning the Church, and only the Church, while children are out there in danger. But not just from the Catholic priest (back on the individuals now), not just from the Jewish rabbi (again, the individuals), not just the Protestant ministers (individuals), but also from teachers (individ.), and police men (indiv), and that guy at the bus stop (ind), and the guy in the dark alley (i), but most importantly the closest to the children their uncles (i), and their dad (i, and this maybe the worst of all cases), and it's not just men out there doing this, women are wolves in sheep's garments for they are just as capable and less conspicuous. Wow! Now there is a list. But in all that time, surely some child's innocence has just been robbed.

Now, you've made your suggests and your prejudice clear about the Church. Do you have anything better to offer for viable ways to stop it on the much grander scale? Or do you really not care about that? Do you just want to hold on to that hatred of the Church, while children are loosing their innocence? Hold onto it that anger, and it will continue to bitter and blacken you. And anything, even the best and greatest of holy things done for people, you will scowl at. For your sight will be so blackened that even though you are staring at the glory of God, you will call it the darkness of the abyss. So perverse will all things become to you.

Instead of spending your time cursing, why don't you light a match in the darkness?

I dont hate the church, incorrect assumption, you are so wide of the mark its unreal. I have no prejudice against the Church, incorrect assumption. You are jumping to conclusions in defensive mode. If it helped to sort this mess out I'd use a damn flamethrower if it was more effective, let alone a match - anything is better than defensive spin.



Oh I care - much more than that utterly disgraceful remark implies.

I get back to my central point, the Institutions involved in these dispicable acts must stop the smoke and mirrors, and take positive action to prevent it happening again. It will never be stopped totally, of course, its in the genetic make up of some, but that does not excuse inaction or cover up. Nor does it excuse simplistic actions designed to reduce scandal (eg transferring them to other areas - that hardly stops it reoccuring). Nor does it help when many say "Please Miss they are doing it as well" in the guise of the six year old caught in the act of some misdemeanor in the school playground.

I dont give a damn which institution it was, its hardly relevant, it just so happens the light is shining on the Catholic Church at present because of recent events. Thats Life - if an institution holds itself to be the final arbitor on moral values, dont be surprised if the media and the public in general go for the throat. With Leadership there comes responsibility, with responsibility there comes the reality of accepting the consequencies of failed values and aspirations.

When events such as this occur, it is horrible for true believers, and my heart goes out to them almost as much as those who were abused. To have their trust in an institution shattered in this way, is a hard reality to accept.

I have stated clearly in the past, unequivocally, that whilst I am not a "believer" I do passionately believe in the values put forward by Christian Faiths as a decent way of life, and follow those values - hardly a mark of someone who "hates" the Church, or is deeply "prejudice".

What I do hate is defense responses from Institutional Leadership and others - whatever that institution is - designed first and foremost to minimise the bad news, preserve reputations and keep myths alive. Our children deserve better. Its happened, all concerned should stop self denial, and spin, and join together to sort this out. Past attempts over the Centuries have failed, why do you think so many people are so angry?

Evangelical responses from many assuming all want to put the knife in the Church are so way off the mark its laughable. The Church is a core institution we need, of whatever Faith varient various people have, to promote decent moral standards and a sound way of living. You dont have to believe in a Supreme Deity, to hold those values of common decency, nor have to believe in a Supreme Deity to understand the need for the Church to survive to uphold those values.

But it will not survive unless it takes its collective head out of the sand and sort the problem out within its particular sphere of influence - its not rocket science.

LARRY KUPERMAN POSTS:

Ever since 2001, the pro-homosexual movement and the big media elites who loath the Catholic Chruch for its traditional stance on sexual morality have hyped the sexual abuse of children to make it seem as though it's an exclusive Catholic problem.

Kuperman, you talk about sex abuse as an institutional problem, how about the sex abuse children suffer in the public schools? Now and then we hear about it when a young woman teacher has sex with a minor age boy, but that's about it. For those of you who think our children are safe and sound in public schools, think again.

Zydor, are you aware of this and if you are, are you just as outraged?

For those of you who want to get a glimpse of the problem check out professor Charol Shakeshaft of Hofstra University who was commissioned by the US Dept. of Education to do a study on sex abuse in the public schools. Her 2004 report estimated that 10 % of students are victims of sexual misconduct by school officials ranging from sexual comments and advances to rape.

The numbers show that nationwide there are about 45 million school children grades K-12 and there are potentially over 4 million cases of child sexual abuse in government schools alone. Speaking conservatively, this means the sexual abuse of students is more than 100 times the abuse by priests. Why don't we hear about lawyers suing the schools and the media relative silence?

"Zydor, are you aware of this and if you are, are you just as outraged?"

Very sorry for late reply, my fault, didnt realise the question had been posed.

Of course I am - any sane human being would be. However thats hardly the point is it? That gets back to my analogy of the playground "Please Miss they are doing it as well".. Certainly not suggesting thats your particular intent - even if it was, thats your business not mine.

In todays spin driven farce of a world where reputation seems to be the be all and end all, Institutions still dont get the message "stop the smoke and mirrors" when our children are abused. I find it totally incomprehensible that the majority of Faith Leaders are on the defensive on this, they are suppoosed to be drilling moral values into us, not the other way round. Whether or not thats happening, only the Institutions can say, but if it continues whereby the Public perceive its happening, and happening without concerted efforts to achieve resolution, that Instituation is going to wither away to insignificance - we cannot let that happen to the Church(s)/Faith(s).

Given a choice between Institutional survival and our children, our children will win hands down, no contest. The problem is there in Public Schools I totally agree, my children went to Public Schools, I am accutely aware of the issue. I dont believe its resolved to perfection in Public Schools, but I do believe the necessary safeguards that are practical are in place, and far more important, when it occurs there, I am content the Institutions involved will be suitably outraged, and will sort out that local incident. In the real world, not theologicaly driven theory, I can ask for no more.

Faiths are way way from that at this time. The Public perception, right or wrong, is that most Faiths have in the past, been more interested in protecting reputations and myths than anything else. Until that perception (right or wrong) changes, expect to be attacked - especially where our children are concerned. Fair? Whats that got to do with it - its a real world out there not an academic theological session. Hence my comment, they have to take their collective head out of the sand, face the previously unthinkable, and sort it. Will they solve it 100%, of course not, thats insane logic, that will never happen - but they must be seen to be putting in place practical measures to stop this that are monitored and measured for effectiveness, and then on the rare occasions it occurs, have measures to swiftly deal with it.

It boils down to Trust. To use your analogy I Trust the Public School System in its motives and intent to stamp it out. They will of course also go into damage limitation mode as well, I understand that, but equally I Trust them to put the children first, not spin. At the moment I dont have that Trust in some Faiths to do the same because they have effectively dodged this for Centuries. Until I get that Trust back they will get attacked when they dont sort out incidents properly as they occur.

Zero tollerance five years ago was a great start, full marks, but its going to take more than five years to regain the Trust lost over Centuries. We can rebuild that Trust if we all work on it together, its not going to happen if people go into self denial and defensive mode.

Its not rocket science.

Zydor,

Have you read the lastest comments posted on DrGuy's, Sins of the Father"? It seems to me that they more than adequately address Zero tolerance and "people going into self denial and defensive mode" when it comes to clerical sexual molestation. I don't think that both the Church or those of us who commented can any longer be rightfully accused of this.

As far as child sex abuse in the public school system, I think you naive to trust that they are "stamping it out". We are only at the tip of the iceberg on this. And while the media was/is all over covering the Church, they will stay as far away and be mum concerning reporting these cases unless they are extraordinary ones.

I've already mentioned checking out Professor Charol Shakeshaft of Hofstra University who was commissioned by the US Dept. of Education to do a study on sex abuse in the public schools. Her 2004 report estimated that 10 % of students are victims of sexual misconduct by school officials ranging from sexual comments and advances to rape.

The numbers show that nationwide there are about 45 million school children grades K-12 and there are potentially over 4 million cases of child sexual abuse in government schools alone. Speaking conservatively, this means the sexual abuse of students is more than 100 times the abuse by priests. Why don't we hear about lawyers suing the schools?

One reason we don't is becasue it's far mor lucatrive to sue the Catholic Chruch or any church or private organization than it is to sue the local public school district. Most school districts enjoy sovereign immunity for incidents of sexual child abuse unless the state legislature says otherwise.

There is a process that has been carried out among schools called "passing the trash" where those accused of sexual abuse of students are transferred to other schools or districts and the new school is almost never informed about the sexual misconduct of the teacher being transferred.

After invesitgating public school employees, for anyone who is truly interested in protecting young people from sexual molestation, they should investigate Planned Parenthood whose staffers can provide leads on statuary rape that is indispensable.

Planned Parenthood is tied by the apron strings to all public schools by way of sex education. In many cases, PP provides the curriculum, the education of the teachers and social workers, all the books, and other materials. It's a closed system right now that is protected by state law, by the players themselves, and by the "drive-by" elite media.

Here's the problem with that. It has been correctly pointed out the sins of some of the priests in the Catholic Church, and some of the heirarchy in covering it up. It is easy to nail the church since in this case all roads lead to Rome (literally).

The School system is a completely different animal. Having worked in education for many years, I know the problem is as severe - perhaps more so since Children have to be in school (they do not have to go to Church). BUT and it is a big one - there is not one point of control - anywhere. There are thousands and thousands of points of control. Each district is automous within itself. It only answers to the state and feds on policies and procedures (and then often only to get the money). The feds and states have no jurisdiction on the internal management of the system - as long as they are offering the programs that the money is earmarked for.

So when you say you "trust", who do you "trust"? Do you trust 100,000 boards across the country? Each with a handful to a score of administrators? And do you trust them all to do what is right? for if you do, I can tell you that your suspicion of the Church is magnified many fold in the schools. I have seen them do the teacher shuffle - as bad as the church has. And unless the perp is charged (often it takes more than that - at least a conviction) of the crime, they are still there doing it - at another school in the same district.

We hear a lot today about what the priests in the church did years ago, and it is still coming out. And indeed, one would be a fool to think it is not still happening, albeit to a much lesser extent. However, check the headlines of today. And you will see that it is not a problem of yesteryear in the Schools. It is an ongoing problem of today.

This is not a symptom of schools. This is a trait of the perpertrators. They seek out positions where they can find easy prey. It is true in the Catholic Church, the Protestant Churches, Jewish Synagogues, Muslim Mosques, and yes, especially in the schools.

But the only one that has a controlling authority - a single point of authority if you will - is the Catholic Church. So to some, when it comes to child molesting (I have been told that pedophelia is only molesting pre-pubescent children), the easiest target is the Church. And so they are the ones that get the bigotry and condemnation - while the others are ignored.

I hear where you are coming from, I don’t deny there is bigotry around.

You maybe right, I may be naive re Public Schools, time will tell I guess. If it turns out badly lets hope they do move quickly, If they don’t, then I reassess the whole thing in my mind, my reaction will be just as harsh sounding with them if I believe they havent moved properly.

Meanwhile, that situation has no baring on the inequalities that may or may not be present in other Institutions. I have always taken a clear position, I am not a Church hater - quite the opposite for preservation of moral values - you don’t need to believe in a Supreme Deity for that to hold true.

I don’t hate or bash the Church for idealistic reasons, I don’t bash them at all frankly (although I do concede I can be a little blunt at times). We are back to perception again. At present there are issues, lets hope they get resolved by zero tolerance, only time will tell how genuine that is - in past Centuries it has demonstrably not been the case, its happened too often where genuine resolution has not occurred. In those circumstances you cant expect overflowing Trust. Whether that’s a fair stance or not, is not the issue, if the general Public feel that way, it has to be addressed - fair or not. The central issue is the Children, that’s where the debate must fall, not reputation. Too often its the latter, if we all spent more time on solving the childrens problem than debating reputation, maybe we will get to the End Field quicker.

It could well be a case of "Cry Wolf" this time, if it is, then its a mess they got themselves into by not addressing it properly before. I agree its frustrating to see it happen elsewhere, maybe even more elsewhere, and the pain is unequal that’s certainly true, but its inevitable when the Faiths are rightly seen as the "Torch Holders" on values, do not be surprised therefore if higher standards are expected when there is an issue with one of the Torches.

For the Church to make the statement "pedophilia is only molesting pre-pubescent children" is crass to put it mildly when it has a credibility problem on its hands. That’s where I am coming from, I am on the Faiths side - despite being an atheist - but it continually shoots itself in the foot with statements like that. The Public are not interested in hair-splitting, the trend is towards anger when they perceive that’s all there is going on - true or not that’s reality. That classic statement from Faith Leaders can have only one result in most of the Publics mind "here we go again". Hence my phrase they need to take their heads out of the sand, recognise most are willing them to succeed to get rid of this evil, but they cant seem to get that into their heads, and issuing statements like that is mind blowing - its nuts.

I know it hurts, and most in the Public - I believe - feel that too. Its the old story of the Silent Majority. You will hear from the nutters, but they are not the ones to worry about and react to with equal public spin. The latter turns off the Silent Majority, who are fundamentally on the Faiths side, and I believe want to help. If Faith leaders don’t wake up to that, and continually go on the defensive - which is like it or not current perception - the Silent Majority will bury them.

Zero tolerance was a great start, its never happened before, lets see how it goes, but the issuing of that policy will not change perceptions in the short term, not any more, its going to take time now to demonstrate its a serious practical effort. The general perception is, there has been too many false starts to get instant happiness now. The latter is not going to happen, it will take time. Even longer, if they insist on issuing crass statements like that one above.

I don’t hate or bash the Church for idealistic reasons, I don’t bash them at all frankly

I have found this to be true in your writings, and did not mean to imply you with my comment.  However, that is not true of all who are commenting on this issue.

For the Church to make the statement "pedophilia is only molesting pre-pubescent children" is crass to put it mildly when it has a credibility problem on its hands.

It is not the Church (to my knowledge at least) that has brought this distinction to my attention.  It was a comment by kingbee on my own blog (of which this was just a part of the article - not the main point of it).  I have always thought that pedophelia was about children - those under the age of consent.  But according to him (and I have no reason to doubt his claim as it is based on clinical definitions, not denails by any of those under suspicion) and his source:

Pedophilia and child molestation are used in different ways, even by professionals. Pedophilia usually refers to an adult psychological disorder characterized by a preference for prepubescent children as sexual partners; this preference may or may not be acted upon. The term hebephilia is sometimes used to describe adult sexual attractions to adolescents or children who have reached puberty.