I totally agree.  But let us not paint one denomination with the brush of the perversion of the faith.  It is not restricted to one faith, but due to the nature of that faith (centralized), it is being blared in such a manner as to indicate it is.  It is not.  The Catholic faith is centralized, so it is easy to gather statistics, and to chastize them.  However, the perversion is not restricted to just Catholics:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286153,00.html

It is a perversion of all faiths. 

Sadly there are these kinds of sickos in every walk of life and probably have been for as long as Man has walked this little planet.

Very cynical - and unfortunately too true. There is a reason that some professions attract them (teachers, ministers, priests). because of the availability of the victims.

Just a question, how would someone go about putting the Churches 'house' in order? also what would that look like?

"Just a question, how would someone go about putting the Churches 'house' in order? also what would that look like?"

Good question, frankly I personally dont know, I do not have the depth of knowledge of the Church internal politics to be able to put together a lasting solution. I believe the values that Religion in general, Christianity in particular, have great value in following in order to achieve a balanced life. I dont subscribe to the theological elements, but the values it promotes I certainly do. Regretably even those values will inevitably be under attack now as they will lack credibility with the mounting scandal.

Find a solution they must, for whilst I am not a believer in a Supreme Entity (but will defend the right of others to pocess such a belief), I do believe the surrounding values promoted as a result of the existence of that Faith, are immensely important. For those values to loose credibility due to this - a likely long term outcome - would be a disaster with emmense wide ranging consequencies.

Why is the Catholic Church treated so very differently than other institutions? Imagine the outrage if it was a series of Imams at Mosques that perpetrated these acts?

How to put the house in order? Aggressive criminal prosecution against priests and other clerics involved in such heinous acts or in the concealment of such acts, confiscation of Church properties to pay damages to victims and closing churches in the worst areas for a period of not less than 10 years...that would clean it up real quick.

According to the John Jay Report commissioned by the Church itself, 4392 priests sexually molested thousands (approximately 15,000) children during the 1990s. Further, senior Church members acted in violation of common sense,if not the law, by protecting these priests and moving them from location to location.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger himself, before ascending to the Papacy, grossly understated the degree of the problem. Even after internal reports stating that 5% of the priests in the Boston area, 6% of the priests in the Baltimore area and an un-Godly 7% of the priests in the Manchester, New Hampshire area were involved in pedophilia, Ratzinger said less than 1% of priests were involved. Thats right...he "misspoke." (Source: Sin Against the Innocents, based on documents used in court cases.)

There is nothing new here. In 1741, Pope Benedict XIV wrote the Sacramentum Poenitentiae. Basically it recognized that priests were soliciting sexual favors,even from children, during confession. Two hundred and fifty years later, the Church has allowed this illness to fester. Close down the Arch-diocese in Boston and watch how quickly the Church acts.

And while we are at it, close down all churches that have sinned due to the sinners. None are exempt While there are millions of churches/synagogues, there are only thousands of miscreants. But then we must purge all traces, and to do that, we must erradicate all avenues in which they may travel.

Burn the world! then we will get them all.

Of course there is nothing new here, it has long been known by many down the Ages, the key point is that the Church has allowed it to fester. In the modern day and age, we demand concrete evidence in a court of law - for good reason, although in cases such as this there is a temptation to short cut the system.

As to why the initial comment is against the Catholic Church, that’s self evident, its the largest Christian Church, and arguably the oldest - it certainly touts itself as such. Therefore in getting attention in these times it is always going to be the media target in the latter's core business, and prime consideration, of circulation wars.

As to closing individual churches that were / have been involved, I am a little more cautious. Certainly it removes the miscreant, but it also punishes the remainder of the congregation who, by overwhelming majority, were not involved. There is also the view that the Church has immense reserves of money, albeit now locked up in assets in these enlightened modern financially astute times - anyone who believes the Catholic Church is "poor" is either very naive, or lacks any kind of knowledge of the growth of the institution in the Middle Ages - arguably both. I don’t believe they will actually even feel the bump financially - for sure, huge figures will be trumpeted about, but the relative financial damage - whilst by no means small in absolute terms - will be relatively easy to absorb without much long term pain.

The issue needs to be tackled at an internal political level where it will hurt the most. The Pope is elected by a group (very large group) of Cardinals, not some mystic divine intervention, it is there where my gut reaction concerning the solution lay, As to how to make that a reality, I don’t know, as I do not know enough about the very introvert closed door politics of the hierarchy in Rome. Without doubt that is where the power of the Church is, and is certainly where the ambitious individual aspires to. As with anything find the power base, then its weakness. The power base is clear, has been for Centuries with the Wars and horrific actions carried out sponsored by the Cardinals in the Dark & Middle Ages, but at that point my knowledge gives way as to how to ensure we don’t just remove one idiot and replace them with another - such is the depth and breadth of this depravity in the Church, to the detriment of the overwhelming majority in the church who are not so inclined. The latter maybe a harsh comment, but almost uniquely, the Church must be seen - and actually be - whiter than white on moral values, if it is to be successful in spreading them - fairness does not come into it - reality and perception is all.

Even though I am a "non believer" in a theological sense, I do passionately believe in the values Christianity puts forward. The Church is already going through the pains of almost terminal decline in many countries - and the "head in the sand" attitude to sagas like this explain why - but, sadly, its reaping what it sows. Up to the Industrial Revolution it could get away with doing nothing, sweep it under the carpet, and it most certainly did, as Communication means throughout the world were not capable of near instant information spread, nor were communication means so wide and deep as now. Now, there is nowhere to hide, and the previous methods of brush it under the carpet will not work - arguably the opposite would be true, purge it loudly and publicly, we seem to love people apologising these days.

There is no simple solution, but find one we must, and it must take account of the dynamics of the deeply rooted internal politics emanating out from Rome. The Catholic Church was responsible for some of the most horrific acts imaginable in the Dark & Middle Ages, albeit those times were not exactly a bed of roses for any institution of the times. Nonetheless, despite that checkered past, it is a potential force for doing much good work in modern times, even more than it actually does, limited as it is by the power politics amongst the Cardinals in Rome. We need the Institution it represents, and we cannot afford it to just let it quietly wither away and die "on the vine".

Neither can the children who will suffer from this in the future without a lasting solution - whether its existence is "Old News" or not.

"Burn the world! then we will get them all."
Hardly, but even such indirect defence cannot excuse it, nor provide a reason for inaction. The Church raises itself to be the ultimate source and arbitor of moral values, it cannot possibly even begin to carry out that role if it bligthly sweeps these kinds of problems under the carpet labelled "others do it, so keep quiet and they wont notice". I also doubt they will ever purge it totally, it is buried deep in the genetic make up of some Human Beings, but they must try, and be seen to try with better motivations than a flippant "Burn the world then we get them all".

Dr. Guy, there is no substance to your reply, only your emotion. You act as if all churches have sinned equally, but that is FAR from the case. In fact, I cited the three worst offenders and suggested applying the penalty where the worst crimes took place. You respond with the "Burn the world!" hyperbole because you have nothing else to say

Two parts of my post that were not addressed: If it was a mosque that had allowed clerics to molest thousands of children, what would be the response? Would Dr. Guy step forward and defend them? I think not.

Forget the Moslems, treat the Catholic church like we treat other Christians. We just arrested Warren Jeffs of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for one count of sexual assault and one count of conspiracy. He was public enemy number one.

Secondly is the point that senior Church clerics violated the LAW by concealing crimes. Do what you want about sin or do nothing as the Church has always done. These are crimes. Bernard Law, who acknowledged his misdeeds is allowed to remain a Cardinal!!! He orchestrated pay-offs to families, concealed criminal activity and who knows what else. Law had the Boston Arch-diocese seek bankruptcy protection so that it would have to pay restitution to its victims. 450 kids were proven to have been molested, some repeatedly over years while the Church knew of it and you want to deny reparations to these innocent victims and their families. If the Boston Archdioces is financially bankrupt (we already know that it is morally bankrupt) then let it close down.

Oh, and lest you think that I am being overly harsh, read this: WWW Link

Headline: "Cardinal (Roger Mahony of Los Angeles): There is no way to go back and give them their innocence" LA Archdiocese settles sex abuse claims for $660 million.

Oh, the penitent Cardinal says "Mea culpa!" If only I could give you back your innocence....He should only be struck down will saying that!

The Cardinal managed to prevent these cases from ever being heard in court and forced a settlement on the victims, who have now been "screwed" twice. He marshaled the Churches lawyers and dragged the case on for six years until the victims were worn out:

"The cardinal's dragged this on for a good five or six years now," one of the victims said. "Where we are at today or tomorrow with this settlement, could we have been here four, five or six years ago? Yes, we could have been if the cardinal had been outright and come forward and settled all these claims."

The Church isn't suffering as a result. More than a third of the money will be paid by insurance. Church business will proceed as usual, no priests arrested, no churches closed.

If this were an individual who had molested hundreds of kids, violated the law by not cooperating with police and then paid a small fine...Would that be justice?

Two parts of my post that were not addressed: If it was a mosque that had allowed clerics to molest thousands of children, what would be the response? Would Dr. Guy step forward and defend them? I think not.

Hyperbole?  Perhaps.  But your response of penalizing 95% for the sins of the 5% was what I directed that statement at.  I was not (and if you have read me you know I do not) defending any of them.  What I was and am railing against is the mindset that we must penalize innocents for the guilt of the few.  It is antithetical to what this country was founded upon, and against most ideals of civilized man.  We are not even talking about "the sins of the father" being transferred to the son, rather, the sins of one member of an organization being branded on all members.

In the last few years of the last century, and the first few of this one, we had numerous examples of people abusing their offices of responsibilty in the Corporate world.  Are we to destroy all corporations because of the sins of the few?  That is what the quoted statement indicated.

But the true irony of your response was throwing in the Muslims, as if that would make me want to condemn all Muslim clerics due to the sins of the few.  WHile that may be a popular theme these days for other reasons, I would ask that you find where I have indicated that we punish all Muslim clerics for the sins of the few.

To be fair and honest with you, and what can be found among my writings, is that I have said that a greater scrutiny be paid to Muslim clerics, and that can easily and justly be applied to Catholic Priests as well.  A greater scrutiny - given the history and the nature of the vocation, is not condemning all the innocents for the sins of the few, but making sure that the ones who have a propensity or even the desire to do evil are rooted out before they can do it.

While some may even decry that, this principal is not unknown even in our democracy, as you cannot walk in off the street and get a top secret job just because you want it.  You have to undergo a greater background check than someone applying for the burger flipping job.

It is an institutional problem. It happens with FAR GREATER frequency in the Catholic Church than elsewhere and in some particular Archdiocese where it is permitted. Bernard Law, for example, turned a blind eye to the problem in Boston. He said so.

I suggested "closing churches in the worst areas for a period of not less than 10 years." Not all churches, the ones in the worst areas. So much for "penalizing 95% for the sins of the 5%."

But the Church isn't going to do that. It is going to allow business to go on as usual, move the offenders to new areas and pay off the victims.

You may want to also read my article on "Is Your Religion Wounded?" at WWW Link

If that is not a case of seeing the mote in your neighbor's eye, but not the beam in your own, I don't know what is.

No it does not. The problem or the advantage depending upon your view point, is that the Catholic Church is hierarchical, whereas protestant denominations are not (nor is ultimately the Jewish or Muslim faith). So statistics can be obtained and shown for a single entity instead of doing the leg work, as the Insurance companies did in the referenced article, to track down how prevalent it is within a vocation that is not restricted to a faith.



You contradict yourself here. One cannot "turn a blind eye" to a practice that is "permitted". You can only turn a blind eye to a practice that is not permitted.

But more so, you have just committed the same sin I accused you of earlier. But this time you decided that I must condone/explain/excuse this abhorrent behavior through whatever prejudices you have. That not only frightens me for the implications it brings, but saddens me as well as I expected more than heated hyperbole from you.

Let me address some issues individually:



Closing churches. So I can only assume that you understand a church to be the priest and/or Bishop in charge, and that is it. While I am sure that many people view the Catholic Church that way, that is far from the case. Just as a Protestant church is not just the minister, a Jewish synagogue is not just the rabbi, or a Mosque is not just the Imam. All of those institutions, aside from the building they meet in, are a community of people. It is the community of people that make the building more than just a Lodge hall, and make it a church. closing them would then penalize all the people, not just the clergy, and thus penalize all the people for the sins of the few. Indeed, while I stated 95% in haste, a more accurate figure is 99%+.

So again, hopefully after explaining my point clearer, and perhaps (or not) educating you on what a Church is, I maintain that closing them would penalize the vast majority of innocents, to get at the guilty. This has been done in the past by many societies (wanting not to inflame this response, I hesitate to name some of the more egregious examples of such behavior), but goes against the very foundation of the United States.



No, the CHURCH is not doing that. Again, are we to lock up every employee of Enron because of Ken Lay? By your insinuation and statement, you seem to think that yes, we should, for in their lack of action to reign him in, they agreed with and condoned his antics. By your own statement, you have thus indicated that. I have not nor will not defend the "officers" of the church who have done that, but instead of directing your condemnation at the guilty, you would chose to label an entire people based upon the sins of some.



I have read that article, and will comment on that one in a separate article as I find it to be slanted, inflammatory, and bigoted.

"He orchestrated pay-offs to families"

I find the criticize of this interesting. I've read this thread. People are calling for just less than blood. I am not against bringing the offenders to justice. In fact, I am completely for it. You all call for closing churches and selling everything off of the churches to pay the families. And then this quote come up.
While this next part is pure speculation, I'm quite confident that something to this degree had to occur for a pay off to exist. The families, once the children came forward, approached the Bishops. They said they had a claim against the priest and wanted him removed. Being of sound mind, the Bishops probably started an investigation into the matter. Upon coming to an agreement with the family that such an act did occur, they probably discussed the next course of action. First, they probably discussed how to eliminate the threat of a repeat...therefore they move the priest or turn him over to the police, being that the family chooses to press charges. Then the Bishop wants to make confident family is content of the Church's intent to fix the situation. So he asks what more they want done. Very few Catholics out there, if for the most part they are solidily founded in their faith, would call for blood even if they or their loved ones were wronged. However, since the logic of the State would be to send the matter to the courts and ultimately end up with the families getting into a court battle for money, then the Bishop offers to settle out of court. This is not intended to shield the Church from media. If anything, it seems that the media is far more curious in out-of-court settlements because they have to dig for details, scupability (new word). The Bishops knew from the beginning that there is no hiding the truth. But the families have already be hurt by the actions of one man, in whom they had placed much trust. Why would the Bishops want to have the families go through any more pain of court battles, especially if they knew that the act had occurred. The Church was damaged by the sin to more of a degree than could any media coverage or court battles. But there was still a way to shield the families from more damage. Can you imagine what it would be like to have that tied up in court battles for months and months? It's like reopening the wound, having everyone probe it and deepen it, and then pour some salt in the wound (money). Because at the end of the day, the money does nothing.

It's been said that the Church hasn't felt the impact of the millions of dollars. I can post a list of links proving the otherwise. The last thing the Church ever wants to do is to close a church. It would rather do anything but that, because that act punishes the faith communities who rely upon that church.

But what amazes me is your concern for the Catholic Church. Seriously, you all are actually concerned for the well-being of the Church. You apparently (by your limited and targeted condemnation of these acts) don't really care about the victims or the hidiousness of the crime. You don't, apparently, want it stopped anywhere else. Therefore, one of logic must assume that you have a deep desire for reform of the Church. I'm thankful. I am a Catholic. It's is truly nice to see that people of other faiths, evident from your lack of knowledge about the Church and self-admission, can be so concerned about the future of the one Church. I'm sure this comes off as snide to you all. I wish I could just see you all face to face. Because I really am not meaning this as snide or crude. It is heartfelt. I've been deprived of sarcasm for about a year now since coming to Japan; it just doesn't exist in their language. So I've started abandoning it myself. Please know that I am thankful. You actions speak to your intent. Judging from your words and how you've targeted the Church for reform and calling for an improvement in policy, what else, logically, could be the reason?

As this saga unfolds, I really do get more and more frustrated with the reaction from many quarters, as I am sure many people do.

Whenever events of this serious a nature surface, the reaction is vertually guaranteed - this is unfair, what about him, and him, and him - ahhh you dont understand you obviously dont have the inherent intellect to realise that this is a factor, that is a factor, what about this, what about that. Strewth, it makes me want to scream. No one in their right mind believes this is isolated to the Catholic Church, or even just to Christian Faiths, good grief this disgraceful conduct has been going on for Centuries, its not exactly the secret of mankind, or the revelation of the last two millenium.

I am increasingly sick and tired, of defensive reactions to serious issues, and a total lack of resolution by those concerned to damn well get on with and resolve it once and for all. The general public is not so stupid as to assume all are tarred by the same brush, equally they know full well that this particular issue has been dealt with in the past by unacceptable practices (in ALL - once again for those hard of hearing ALL - faiths) more designed to preserve reputations than solving the issue and protecting the children potentially at risk in the future, and helping those who have suffered at this moment in time.

Emotional, absolutely, ignores peripheral issues, absolutely the priority is solve this mess NOW, the inquisition can come later.

To those who have the power and the responsibility to resolve this once and for all without the Centuries old tactic of smoke and mirrors, my plea is a simple one - you want people to respect your particular Faiths? Fine, get on with it and STOP this inane, archaic and horrific practice.. Then maybe, just maybe, the numbers of devout followers may start to rise as people start to regain trust in institutions that over the ages - time after time - have set and given pathetic examples to follow.

For once, lets all put our hands up, and say "right lets sort this mess out", and for once do it thinking first and formost of those caught up in it.. There is a time for intellectual disussion, a time for finger pointing - now is not it. Stop the waffle and smoke screen and get on with it.

It makes my blood boil.